Kathy Ruemmler Defends Relationship With Epstein In Congressional Testimony
Former White House Counsel Kathy Ruemmler told lawmakers Wednesday she “regret[s] ever having anything to do with” Jeffrey Epstein but denied any wrongdoing, as the attorney testified to the House Oversight Committee about her relationship with Epstein amid new documents in the Epstein files that suggest the two had a closer friendship than she publicly claims.
Ruemmler spoke with the committee behind closed doors Wednesday as part of lawmakers’ ongoing investigation into Epstein, but a transcript will likely be released in the coming days.
Ruemmler, who stepped down as Goldman Sachs’ top attorney earlier this year over her ties to Epstein, previously served as President Barack Obama’s White House counsel before going into private practice, at which point she met Epstein around 2014.
Documents in the Epstein files suggest the two had a close relationship, with Epstein frequently chatting with Ruemmler and sending her lavish gifts—including expensive spa visits, an Apple watch, an Hermes bag and $10,000 in Bergdorf Goodman gift cards—and Ruemmler frequently using terms of endearment with Epstein, referring to him as “Uncle Jeffrey” and signing some emails with “xoxo.”
Ruemmler remained in touch with Epstein until his 2019 arrest, with documents in the Epstein files showing she helped him try to rehabilitate his public image amid reports of his alleged abuse, and handwritten notes indicate he called the attorney directly after he was arrested.
In her opening statement to lawmakers Wednesday, Ruemmler said she “did not see any evidence” of misconduct by Epstein and would have “immediately” reported him to law enforcement if she had “seen or heard any evidence suggesting that he was abusing women or girls,” repeating previous denials she has made about knowing of Epstein’s abuse.
Ruemmler defended her relationship with the late financier, however, saying she “dealt with him in my ordinary course” of dealing with professional associates—“casually, informally and sometimes irreverently”—and many of her emails with Epstein “have been taken out of context or do not mean what some have speculated or suggested.”
In her opening statement Wednesday, as quoted by news outlets, Ruemmler said she met Epstein in 2014 and continued to associate with him despite knowing of his previous 2008 conviction for soliciting prostitution. Epstein “expressed remorse, embarrassment and regret” for his previous conduct, which Ruemmler thought was only limited to “paying money” to women he believed to be adults, and she was accustomed as an attorney to “routinely” associating with “compromised or controversial people.” Ruemmler said she realizes now her conclusion was “deeply flawed,” and “at no time did I endorse or excuse” Epstein’s conduct that led to his 2008 conviction. Ruemmler said her relationship with Epstein ended after his arrest in 2019 and she was “shocked by his indictment,” which she said “contradicted what I had known about the nature and scope” of his prior misconduct. She also dismissed the importance of Epstein’s gifts to her—claiming she “didn’t ask for them, didn’t need them, and didn’t view them as particularly personal or consequential”—and said she now “wish[es] I had never dealt with him at all, much less emailed with him.” Ruemmler described Epstein as a “masterful liar” who “clearly lied to me,” and said he “used me and other respectable people to legitimize his standing.” While people assume “that given everything we know now about Epstein, everyone who dealt with him before his 2019 indictment must have known everything then,” Ruemmler said, “In my case, that is completely wrong.”
While lawmakers’ exact questions to Ruemmler won’t be clear until the full transcript is released, Rep. Raja Krishnamoorthy, D-Ill., told Reuters ahead of Tuesday’s hearing that lawmakers must use the interview to “pull back the curtain on how Jeffrey Epstein built and maintained wealth, power, and influence while operating one of the most notorious sex trafficking operations in modern history,” also noting how the Epstein files “revealed a far more extensive relationship between Ms. Ruemmler and Epstein than was previously understood.” Ruemmler had a number of exchanges with Epstein documented in the government’s files that have raised scrutiny and could come up on Tuesday, such as a 2014 exchange in which Ruemmler said, “Most girls don’t have to deal with this crap” when discussing a job issue. “Girl=??” Epstein responded. “Careful I will renew an old habit.”
Ruemmler said prior to Wednesday’s hearing she “regret[s] ever knowing Jeffrey Epstein” and has referred to the late financier as a “monster” in the wake of his death, with spokesperson Connelly telling The Miami Herald, “Ms. Ruemmler has deep sympathy for those harmed by Epstein and if she knew then what she knows now, she never would have dealt with him at all.” In a recent interview with attorney Ankush Khardori for the The New York Times—which has been criticized for being too sympathetic to the attorney—Ruemmler defended her seemingly close relationship with Epstein as being in line with how lawyers operate with wealthy individuals. Ruemmler has received expensive gifts from other clients like she did with Epstein, she claimed, and defended her friendly tone with him in emails as being what’s necessary for a woman in the industry who’s trying to be taken seriously. As “the only woman in the room oftentimes,” Ruemmler told Khardori, “you have to figure out how to get people to listen to you.” She also defended specific conversations with Epstein, alleging that when Epstein referred to his “old habit,” she assumed he was talking about referring to adult women as girls. “Hindsight bias has caused many people to assume that given everything we know now, everyone who dealt with Epstein must have known all of that then,” Ruemmler said. “That assumption is wrong.” She and Connelly have also pushed back on a number of specific points of interest in her relationship with Epstein, such as noting her call with Epstein after his arrest was “brief” and didn’t result in Ruemmler taking any specific actions to help him, and denied comments by Epstein that suggested Ruemmler did personal legal work for the financier. “Ms. Ruemmler had no control over how Epstein characterized her or their interactions,” Connelly told CNN. “She was not his defender. She never advocated on his behalf with any third party – not the press, not a court, not a government official.”
While Ruemmler has repeatedly claimed her relationship with Epstein was strictly professional, there are also a number of comments in the Epstein files that suggest Ruemmler and Epstein had more of a personal friendship than she has claimed more recently. Epstein described Ruemmler at one point as his “great defender,” for instance, while Ruemmler told Epstein in 2015 she was “thinking of you and am so very grateful for our friendship.”
Ruemmler’s interview with Congress on Tuesday comes shortly after the Wall Street Journal reported her transition away from Goldman Sachs has become a point of contention for those hoping to replace her as the company’s top lawyer. Ruemmler formally stepped down from her role at Goldman in February, saying it was in the bank’s best interest for her to step aside amid the media scrutiny she’s faced over Epstein. The attorney has stayed on at the firm as an advisor and to help find her successor, which the Journal reports has raised “concern” among some employees at the bank and potentially dissuaded potential applicants, because “it is unclear how long Ruemmler will stay on and in what capacity.” Goldman Sachs has defended Ruemmler’s continued presence at the bank, with spokesperson Tony Fratto telling the Journal, “The leadership and the Board appreciate her willingness to stay and help as she has been an excellent General Counsel.”
Gifts and soup from ‘Uncle Jeffrey': The Epstein ties that ended Kathy Ruemmler’s run at Goldman (Associated Press)